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[Linrad] Re: Linrad MAP65 Communication II

-----Original Message-----
>From: Leif Asbrink <leif@xxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Jul 23, 2009 4:29 PM
>To: linrad@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [Linrad] Re: Linrad MAP65 Communication II
>Hi Rein,
>> I started this with the intention to use 2 computers and drifted
>> eventually towards this solution with one computer..
>OK. But two computers should actually be easier since there 
>would not be any timing issues.

I have yet to have 2 computers to communicate.
The IP adress of the MAP65 laptop is obtained with the DOS
Ipconfig/all and I can ping the addresses from the other computers.

Also they work in the microsoft sense of the word, as a so called
home network.

>> Could not get the 2 computers to work together even after the
>> introduction of the par_netsend_ip parameter.
>Did you really write the address of the computer inside which 
>you run MAP65 into the file?
Absolutely and the correct IP address shows up in the networking
setup menu ( ist or second line )
>> The introduction was via Joe's MAP65 I-Q package.
>> I am afraid the present problem is a timing problem in particular
>> as I it working sort of in one of perhaps 15 trials.
>> Shortage in CPU or memory.
>Yes. Windows will use its swap file without giving any warning
>and that may cause various problems. You can set all storage times
>to minimum to minimize the memory used by Linrad.
>> Here are a few more questions:
>> Given this 1 computer setup, should I select uni- or multicast?
>Linrad does not give any choice. 
>> You say Linrad is in multicast as default.  How could I have known
>> this?
>Start at SM5BSZ Home Page:

Agreed and I had and have seen that, It's one of those things
we talked about, I came from MAP65 and was expecting to see 
something like use "unicast for ( 1 or 2 computers ) " You see
I still do not get it!

You did not define what you understand uni ( one to one = 2 )
or one to more than 2 ( multi ) 

Believe me Leif, I have been told by others that I have been e-mailing with,
both settings to use. For the same situation.
There is confusion about this. It is not just me. I am trying to eliminate
this, and get to instructions that gets one results right away,

You will say almost I am not going to do this because I like to see how
people make out and I learn from it.
I really am not out to make trouble. I hurts your cause! Isn't satisfying
if people can download your work that you have put so many efforts towards,
just out of the box? 

Leif, I really want to be positive and creative here. Really.

>On this page there are two links
>Linrad <http://www.sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/linrad.htm>
>Linrad for newcomers <http://www.sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/usage/newco/newcomer.htm>
>The newcomer page has a link to <http://www.sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/linrad.htm>
>the same as the first link on the SM5BSZ Home Page.
>The Linrad link goes to "Linrad Home Page" and here you should
>search for network. The word network occurs two times on the page and
>the second occurance is this:
>LINRAD NETWORK <http://www.sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/run/network.htm> 
>That page starts like this:
>Linrad uses the network to make raw or processed data available 
>to other programs that may run on the same computer or on any 
>other computer in a local network.
>Linrad can multicast on IP addresses (groups) to 
> This means that several computers can multicast 
>their data to the network simultaneously in different groups.
>The Linrad base port has to be set between 50000 and 65000 
>in steps of 10 and Linrad will send data to a port with an 
>offset with respect to the base port that depends on the 
>data format. 
>> The only place I saw the " _cast" parameter selectable is in MAP65.
>Yes. The Linrad network was not intended for MAP65 originally 
>but for use in a multioperator contest station. I got 
>enquieries about the use of two computers on the same antenna. 
>Would it be possible to connect Delta44 cards in parallel or 
>would one need two RX2500 units. (The answer is perhaps. 
>There could be a significant increase in the noise floor but 
>a really thick and short wire between the two Delta44 might 
>help.) The network was originally implemented as a solution
>to this problem.

OK Leif I get this and I fully understand that you would keep 
the Linrad as flexible and adaptable to all possible applcations
present and future. On the other hand one approach does not exclude
the others.

You just introduced the beginners version.
Great step forward.
May I say imagine if you had introduced this 5 or 
perhaps even 10 years ago. Getting old, can't quite 
remember if it is has been 10 years or more. The introduction of
the windows version, has without a doubt, made ir easier to do this.
But I believe you could have done this mush earlier even in Linux.

Let me suggest not to use "N" for this, as "N" is used for network setup
already any other not used letter would be fine I think 

I was using ver 3.06 hat has the "N" option and I for get how I got
to the Network setup but i did. 

With a selection as the "N"ewcomer you can of course go to another
version of the existing program.

Linux is out of the box these days as long as one stays away from sound
cards andthe like and want to do programming plus a few other things I

The use of Linrad with MAP65 is at this point a much more important 
application in amateur cicles I think. There is ton of amateurs on
2 M EME with JT65 these days, virtually around the clock 7 * 24 * 30/(31)
They all could use Linrad/MAP and the way people spend effort
( and money ) these days many try to obtain the very best within there means.
The nature of EME in a 100 Khz wide band makes finding each other 
a difficult problem and time consuming problem , it ties in with the 
hated use of the EME loggers etc etc.
MAP65 allows to operate without help from loggers, sked lists, the phone.
you name it.

>> ( have been given by others no conclusive answers.,( also, it has come
>> up in most of the exchanges)
>Well, describing all options that would be possible and that
>Linrad does not have would be quite a challenge. I do not know
>enough about networking to have any idea about how to implement
>a unicast solution because a pairwise computer communication 
>is normally "error free" which means that the Linrad computer 
>would hang if the map65 computer gets too busy. 

My  latest results are now as follows. 

All machines XP

Having a laptop      P4 1.7 GHz 512 MB 
       2 benchtops   P4 1.7 or 1.9 Ghz 512 NB and the 2d 1024 MB memory

Loaded this morning fresh MAP65 I-Q linrad,2.35  is included in the MMAP65
package,available from K1JT's web pages ( google MAP65 Linrad will gets one there )

Installing this has become second nature here and it really is out of the box.
It needs of course a RF SPACE SDR NN and USB port(s) on the computer to be

The 512 MB machine runs fine with MAp65, there  are no interruptions of the MAP65
data stream reception when the WSJT65B send cycle starts. Linrad keeps on sending
data it seems and as said it is working. Except for a minor point.
It I open a pull down menu in MAP65 the data steam reception of MAP65 stops
as in the previous laptop version when MAP goes in "send"

So the pulling down of the a menu causes an event that prevents linrad
sending out data, I think that is really what is happening.
similar as with the laptop. I can live with that I think

The 2d benchtop is just working! During send Linrad keeps working and 
sending audio to the sound card. it keeps doing this even when MAP65
goes into send. WSJT tones and receiver audio are both present.
Sound card gets obvious signal from 2 sources. Ansd it is not causing
any problems.

Out of perhaps as many as 15 loadings with the laptop I had that happen
once! This indicates that there is something time critical on the edge.

It is by no means clear to me what interaction there is between
Linrad and MAP65 except that they both use the same CPU and of course
any high load of the CPU could cause trouble.

MAP65 does not seem to care whether the incoming data stream stops as
in the Linrad "P" key stroke . as soon the data steam resumes ( 'B")
it accepts the data

Linrad on the other hand seem to show sensitivity to "events" and
it does not recover though it keeps running in some fashion.

Certainly if the the CPU gets to busy trouble start. 
However, I have a 15 MB powerpoint picture fileel of my beloved
harbor of Rotterdam and I can kick this file from one computer
to the other on this very network we are taking about, via  the
2 network cards in these 2 computer faster than I can see it happen. 
Msecs probably. Have this had working here since I started this 10
days ago.

>I think the terminology is confusing and presumably misleading.
>What Linrad does is to send data of type SOCK_STREAM to the network
>socket. The choice is based on this information:
>Provides sequenced,  reliable,  two-way,  connection-based  byte
>streams.  An out-of-band data transmission mechanism may be supâ
>Supports datagrams (connectionless,  unreliable  messages  of  a
>fixed maximum length).
>Provides  a  sequenced,  reliable, two-way connection-based data
>transmission path for datagrams of fixed maximum length; a  conâ
>sumer is required to read an entire packet with each read system
>Provides raw network protocol access.
>Provides a reliable  datagram  layer  that  does  not  guarantee
>Obsolete  and should not be used in new programs; see packet(7).
>Read about multicast here:
>It seems to me that the transmission would be unicast if only one
>computer joins the group (=the IP address to which Linrad transmits
>the datagrams) while it becomes multicast if more computers join.
>The transmitting Linrad does not get any information from MAP65
>or or slaves as a response to the datagrams. Linrad does however
>have a server to which other computers can send inquieries about
>what calibration function to use etc. Linrad slaves use it for
>unicast back to the master to say at what frequency they listen.  
>> My interpretation was with a 2 computer system uni- 
>> one communicates with 1 computer.
>Yes. By only having two computers the communication could be called
>unicast if one accepts the definition given by the illustrations
>on wikipedia.
>> multi_ with more than one "slave" computer.
>Yes. But the difference is in the network. Not in Linrad.
>When using SOCK_DGRAM one does not know if there is one listener
>(=unicast) or more than one (=multicast) or wether there
>is no listener at all. 

So here we have it, 2 computer system uni  cast, more that 2
>> For the same money, one could say uni- with a single
>> computer, multi- with more than 1 computer in the system.
>I do not know. It would be nice if someone who really knows
>the terminology for networks would write a text about networks
>with the relevant information for Linrad users that I could 
>put at the top of the Linrad Network page.
>> I would also think one would need more than one IP or computer
>> name in order to communicate with one than one "slaved computer"
>> With just 2 computers waht should it really be?
>I do not understand this question.
>> SM0ERR is running linrad on a corporate system.
>> How does he handle the IP issue without a par_netsend_ip
>> and or par_netrec_ip parameter?
>Oooh! He does use these files. What he wrote was his response
>when I introduced these files.
>> This question generated in my mind because you say
>> the introduction of a blank par_net*_ip is not such a
>> good idea.
>I can not follow your argument here.
>Mart has created a par_netsend_ip on the computer that is connected
>to the radio hardware. In that file he has written an IP address
>that is legal within his corporate network. Perhaps the IP
>address of the computer he has in his office, perhaps some other
>He has then a file par_netrec_ip with the same address in each
>computer that he wants to use for the Linrad slave. He might
>have one in his office and another in the lab and perhaps even one
>at home. I actually do not know - but perhaps he will send
>a mail to the list and give some info if he reads this:-)
>> I hope the answer is not: "he is running Linux and tunes his files
>> and the program directly to make at  work.?"
>No No. Linrad is the same in Linux and Windows.
>Before I added the par_xxx_ip files Linrad users had to change
>the IP address in the source code in network.c and recompile
>in order to use MAP65. That was the same under Linux and Windows. 
>Just two commands "configure" and then "make":-)
>> It is hard for me to imagine that he is able and to get away with
>> this in a corporate environment with out REALLY understanding
>> networking. Or, more likely that he is the corporate top IT person
>> himself!
>It is not complicated at all. I think you have been confused
>by far too much information....

I thought at that point that corprate IT management do not want computer
users to do this stuff, and it is unlikely in my experience, that users
in the corporation have root privileges. I am not sure what it takes
to work with IP addresses in XP or Vista.
>> I still like to hear from somebody whether in a 2 computer system
>> I should have "shared hard drives" for his?
>There is absolutely no reason that I can find out. You can
>have it if you want to have access to files that are stored on the
>other computer. I do not know to what extent that might cause
>loss of data for MAP65. 
>> More to the point,  WHY or why not.
>For Linrad and MAP65 or Linrad slaves there is absolutely 
>no reason.
>> Getting back to your idea of a problem in the USB start/stop
>> data flow. You are right I am sure.
>> In using the parameters from Joe's MAP65 I-Q fresh loaded
>> for SSB mode only.
>> I start Linrad, S and U, are done by Joe;s parameters
>> I press D, Linrad is working ( stand alone )
>> The next step is real confusing to me, given that the program
>> started with "netsend on" and it is suggested to do the
>> saving "W"
>The W means that you have changed one of the computer related
>parameters. (One of those in par_userint) That will happen if
>you use R, S, T, U, V or N in the main menu. Linrad assumes
>something is changed as soon as you enter one of these functions
>and shows the W message even if you actually did not change 
>any parameter value.
>> All I can do is, toggle T to remove the netsend on message,
>> toggle T again and do a W and then click D
>No. You have choices:
>1) You can ignore the warning which means that the changes you 
>   made will be valid for the current Linrad session but next 
>   time you start Linrad it will use the unchanged parameters 
>   from your par_userint file.
>2) Just press W, then D.
>> Thinking make sure it is in "T" and  then save it.
>> One point of the confusion is that linrad comes in the
>> netsend on mode?
>Why is that? 
>Step 1: Exexcute the selfextracting file that Joe supplies.
>Step 2: Click the Linrad icon that now appears on the desktop.
>Step 3: Press D.
>That is all if you run MAP65 in the same computer.
>> Anyway. Next is I start MAP65 I-Q and hope to not
>> to see "no RX data" and see a real dB number in the
>> noise indication window.
>> It leaves the selection of the cast mode in MAP65
>> as well as the setting of the diagnostics also in
>> the MAP65. program.
>Presumably you should just start the program.
>> I hope somebody can tell me: you are all wrong it
>> should be this way.
>> Another issue is that the above is working most of
>> the time but not 100% solid,  I getting "no RX data"
>> at times.
>You mean "No input" in Linrad?
>> I then start over. I have not bern able to discover
>> a way to correct the data stream issue with one or
>> 2 key strokes.
>When USB hangs, the only cure is to exit from Linrad.
>It should never happen though. Do you know what other
>programs are running? If you have visual effects
>enabled (Default in Windows) you will easily overload 
>the CPU in case your videocard does not have appropriate 
>hardware acceleration.
>> Next question
>> Once MAP65 goes into transmit ( generating
>> tones via the sound card ( selected in MAP65 )
>> and also selected earlier for Linrad ( by Joe's
>> parameter file set.)
>> Should at that point the USB data stream form the
>> SDR I-Q box into linrad stop or not?
>The USB data stream should not stop. Linrad does not
>know that MAP65 is listening. 

Very true, I see that now on the 2 working machines.
>> The incoming data are useless at that point anyway.
>Hmmm, you can use it to see if you are transmitting
>at the desired frequency and you can use Linrad to monitor
>your frequency drift. You could also connect your receiver
>to a directional coupler during transmit and use the
>Linrad S-meter to check your WSVR. 

  I would think in the sense that it would take a lot of 
  T/R swiching, attenuation to make it useful. If implement
  yes, linrad is a selective voltmeter, power meter or
  spectrum analyzer in the end. 
>> Should at the end of the send period in MAP65 the
>> USB data stream resume?
>NO. USB should run all the time.

   It does on the working machines. Is MAP65 collecting
   streaned data a this point? 
>> Suppose I did away with the USB SDR I-Q all togheter,
>> And change back to the delta44 what should happen
>> then in this respect ( linrad keeps working during the
>> send period? I have removed the USB factor now?
>That should solve the problem. You could also connect
>a second computer for MAP65.

   Here is the network problem again popping up.
   Linrad is streaming data on the network card
   with the right IP ( prove of this is that I can
   transfer files form the linrad "shared" documents 
   directory ( windows security stuff ) to the
   "shared" documents directory on the MAP65 computer.

   Windows lets one set up a shared directory for John 
   at Larse's computer as well as a shared directory
   for Bjorn at Larse's computer, John can not send
   data to Larse's computer except to his dedicated
   shared directory and so on.

   That's why I keep on asking about Shared
  I do not understand why I can't get with the data stream clearly 
  present, into MAP65. It HAS to be a network problem or setting. 
  The one computer system is working, the only difference is vs on another ( protected ? )

   While writing this I realize all of the sudden that the laptop
   has a firewall! ( new in XP I think vis XP updates ) 

  On the other hand if this is the reason I would have expected 
  plenty of questions by other windows users here on the
  reflector "Do have a fire wall on the laptop " 
  Just think here on paper.

  Will check this later, just one click to turn that off.

  I have genuine XP stuff here on these machines and MS will check
  it all the time. With the drive to fight cyberwars etc, they make a
  big efforts to update the OS with security fixes ( almost daily
  via internet updating ) One of these updates is the firewall thing
  some time ago. I know the laptop has it. 
>> Going to put MAP65 I/Q on 3 other XP bench tops
>> and see what happens in transmit.
>You mean Linrad + MAP65-IQ ?

  Yes in a way, Joe has made Linrad3.05 part of the 
  MAP65 I-Q installation.

  If one installs MAP65 I-Q linrad is also installed both
  with short cuts.

  Ready to go, as on my 2d and 3d computer.,
>> In conlusion, I get the impression of being an idiot having
>> to ask all these questions in the presence of 150 other
>> users!
>It does help:-)
>Your questions have lead to one improvement in the Linrad setup
>dialogue already. Hopefully there will be someone who will 
>help by writing a suitable introduction to networking for
>Linrad users to be placed on the Linrad network page....

Leif, I have a paper here from an user that should fit as a link on
your web page. I have suggested him to contact you. I think every- 
thing is in the paper and there would be no need for me to do it.
Although I am still willing to do it.

The point is also that I did not learn anything new from his text, had
done every thing right from the beginning. He has a way of creating
the par_netsend_ip file by starting from a copy of one of the other
parameter files and than modifying it. I have the strong impression
from my doings here that that is not needed, do not know really.

Also next week I will try to clean up the 25 or so files we generated and
edit it to a Q&A format. This  should make the reading easier.

Next week I will also comment on all your other comments in this message.
I am running out of time here.
As nobody else seem to have the problems I have here I would love to give
you a hand with a possible solution.

What keeps me from doing this is really to get a "development" or just
"test", if you like,  machine together. A few years ago I compiled linux
versions of Linrad, but found it difficult to get everythig linux
installed so that I could compile and go through the process without
generating pages with error messages due to missing stuff in the Linux 
installation on the drive. 

I imagine that working in Windows is even more trouble as Bill wants
me to buy the, the MS development software.

Perhaps you can make me suggestions what to do for this if anythisng

The SDR hardware is not mine and it would be too much problems to send
it over anyway, I am aftraid.


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